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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:56 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

103271 / 125000
LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
Got another chance to re-test the auto sail function under auto pilot yesterday, got even worse!!
From gate 1:
Set out a 4-marker course (boat NOT running on auto wind!)
Changed to AUTO sail.
Let the boat run into next 'cycle'.
Refreshed browser window (not re-load in game).
Double checked and shut off the comp.
Booted up the comp this morning - boat grounded, way points all over the place, most definitely NOT where I put them. From the pic it is even clear that the boat has made a 'funny' turn just before mark 1 straight onto land, and mark one is NOT where put it, not to mention Mark 2!!
Been running on auto pilot quite some times, never experienced this kind of behavior before, but with AUTO SAIL, it goes bananas!!
Screen-shot here:
https://www.box.com/s/iqmuacfhn8y30j3onyqv

Added:
Here a blown-up of the strange maneuver at 1:
https://www.box.com/s/kmh36mlexj92lefblbl5
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:59 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
Set up a new test route to see if possible to recreate the mess:
https://www.box.com/s/32t0gnm3dhbsy3310v56
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Suratna
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:26 am Reply with quote
Admiral IV

Level 21

9074 / 275000
LiveSkipper Member Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 8844 Location: Thailand TH
Hi haffiman

thanks for the extra information and it does not look to good as I understand it.
yesterday (my) evening, I had to look F1 racing { Embarassed flying cars, and these F1 cars are not made for that as was clear to see Rolling Eyes } and had a terrible internet connection; it took over 10 min to download just a game refresh. I had one moment that a mark from myself looked strange but I thought it was older then the 10 min refresh I was in.

would you remember the time stamp of your mark Question as purple marks will take any action on the previous 10 min update location. I normally set the purple marks at ..:01 or ..:31 to make sure.

I have sailed with autosail in the test server , but mostly with the WP green marks. I will also do some tests with autosail, and autoheading on purple marks and try to reproduce.


From the last picture of your new course, I learn
- you set 3 marks in Scheduler , purple
- you engaged the Auto sail
- you did not engage the Auto-heading.

will try to check from time to time your track as well.

could you give your operating system, windows or apple Question and which browser you are using Question

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Ard-- http://vor201718.blogspot.com/ ; http://paper.li/ardsur/1345867159#
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:55 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

103271 / 125000
LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
Running XP (SP3), up-dated both Java and Flash yesterday.
Did the setting around 2330 (GMT + Cool last night, just after gate 1.
Game refreshed in browser in around 1 min, normal speed here, and the set course came up after browser refresh, not game screen, which should indicate a server registered set-up.
I originally set 4 marks, the last on northern tip of Denmark, but this morning it was gone(???), only 3 left.
As you may see on the pics, it followed the course towards my set mark 1, from just after gate 1.
Then at wind-update something must have happened. Mark 1 moved into Denmark, boat changed course and grounded!
Mark 2 and 3 totally got out of set positions, mark 4 disappeared!!
As for my latest 'test' route, I'll try to keep it on and see what happens. In basic same 'settings' as I had yesterday. As I have made it to pass some wind-updates, hopefully something goes wrong that might lead to solving the mystery.

PS: Trying to type GMT plus eight as time setting, but this board put in a smiley instead!
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Suratna
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:41 am Reply with quote
Admiral IV

Level 21

9074 / 275000
LiveSkipper Member Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 8844 Location: Thailand TH
I did some tests at test-server from about 4:20 till 06:10

set a route

link to picture http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/leg1autoauto2.jpg/
refreshed the game at 0600 wind update and indeed the marks have moved.

link to picture http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/leg1autoauto2.jpg/ (Ihope this link will work)
but IMHO the mark movement is normal when wind is changing. I do not see any un-expected things happening.
Sailing with auto-heading has and is giving so much deviations in route from what skippers hope to achieve. There are ample topics in this forum with frustrated skippers after the auto-heading had thrown their good intended plan aside.
I would, especially in between island never use auto-heading. The fact that you use auto-sail will have no effect on this, as for the game the auto-sail is treated as an additional sail with a vector in all 0-180 degree headings.

The point of loosing a mark from 4 to 3 might be caused by the fact that your boat had sailed to the mark1, afterwhich all the marks are renumbered.

I see your boat has grounded at 06:30 as the heading change seems to have occurred too early, thought the degrees seems more or less correct. Marks on Scheduler purple, will mostly change location. So it is very dangerous to sail around islands using purple marks.
When sailing in a direction of lower winds strengths, the marks have a tendency to come closer to your boat, if sailing in even stronger winds the marks tend to extend from your boat position.

in the BigBlue3 , I have sailed auto-sail and WP marks (Green) without any problems.

My advice would be:
- be very careful in using auto-heading in between islands, as you have a big chance of grounding. I would never use it in between island as you have no control with auto-heading on the direction of your boat.
- in between islands, better use the green WP marks that will be positioned at a fixed location.(auto-heading cannot be used in WP marks, except at the setting of the highest numbered mark)
- in setting purple marks , you may consider to set at a time of ..:01 to be sure that the location of the mark is passed, before the new actions take effect.


Last edited by Suratna on Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Ard-- http://vor201718.blogspot.com/ ; http://paper.li/ardsur/1345867159#
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:08 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
As you have noted in your post above (your pics does not work, shows just a frog with text: unknown domain!:
The AUTO on sail does NOT work, period!
The way points are NOT locked to the map, but gets moved around with wind-up-dates.
I set the way-points in following positions (according to 'yellow flag' info:
1: 56.20.49N -10.58.50E
2:57.01.49N - 10.35.25E
3:57.53.47N - 10.04.18E
After wind-update and passed mark 1 and sent ashore, 2 and 3 are left but:
2 (new 1): 56.55.39 - 10.37.40E
3 (new2) : 57.45.19N - 11.05.11E

Had mark 1 NOT been moved due to wind-up date, I would not have been sent ashore. I did some calculations before putting it up giving that even if I was to be 1 'cycle' ahead when course was changed, I would not have grounded.

This must be seen as a pure prg error.
https://www.box.com/s/0jin3qyj0sa83xyqj1av

https://www.box.com/s/tk9z66xr9nzrx926d6tr

https://www.box.com/s/32t0gnm3dhbsy3310v56


Edited/added.
If you look closer at the first link, notice that selected sail is changed fro AUTO to SOLENT???


Last edited by haffiman on Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:15 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
I'm beginning to suspect that what happens is the way points are 'locked' with course and distance/time and not North/South- East/West position.
When pressing AUTO on sails, an eror in the PRG reads AUTO WIND which will move the way-points.
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:03 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
Are someone 'playing' with my boat?
First it would not up-date, went to cycle but did not move.
Then all of a sudden sail was changed from Solent to Genaker?
Must be a ghost around Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Suratna
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:25 am Reply with quote
Admiral IV

Level 21

9074 / 275000
LiveSkipper Member Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 8844 Location: Thailand TH
Haffiman

No Ghost's in this Race , that is an occasion somewhere in November it might return Rolling Eyes Unless the Ghost has lost his calender and start acting some months too early Laughing

The change in location coordinates of Marks in purple is normal.
the purple marks are set on a time base, starting from your Boat at the time of the setting. Your boat is sailing the specified time in the direction of the mark. If your boats has not reached the mark, still at the time specified that actions of that mark will be executed at the location your boat has sailed in the specified time.
Due to wind changes at different locations, wind conditions change at wind updates, other roundings etc the Mark will have changed its coordinates from when it was set; THAT IS NORMAL BEHAVIOR OF PURPLE MARKS IN LIVESKIPPER.

also when you set a mark time in between the 10 min update e.g. 08:03
the Scheduler purple marks will be actioning at the location where your boat was at 08:00 gmt
the WP green scheduler marks will be actioned at the location of the mark, however only at the time 08:10 gmt.

Changing sails without your interference should not happen, unless it was programmed in the mark.

I donot understand your remark on Auto sail does not work .
see my images that shows my boat is sailing with auto heading and auto sail in the pruple scheduler. please be aware that using the auto sail will reduce the efficiency to 95% compared to the optimum sail.

_________________
Ard-- http://vor201718.blogspot.com/ ; http://paper.li/ardsur/1345867159#
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:37 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
And the explanation for change from AUTO to SOLENT?
https://www.box.com/s/0jin3qyj0sa83xyqj1av
If as you say, the AUTO is a special sail with its own polars, that should not happen?
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Suratna
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:53 am Reply with quote
Admiral IV

Level 21

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 8844 Location: Thailand TH
sail change should not happen , I agree.
I have asked TeamLS already to look into your problems and hope they can analyse in detail and detect something.

If you like to see the Auto sail, in the Polar diagram (icon Polars in game menu) you will have to click the small green dot till a whitish halo shows. A green polar line will show up , in the Europe tour it is green

_________________
Ard-- http://vor201718.blogspot.com/ ; http://paper.li/ardsur/1345867159#
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:04 am Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
Thanks. Running 'Green' test at the moment. Will soon change that one to 'AUTO Sail' as well.
Perhaps a bit more explanations in the Wikie concerning the autopilots limits/dangers and advantages might be an idea?
The only use I can see of the Purple is if you want a turn at wind-update, but as the next point will move, difficult to know where you are heading?
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haffiman
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:44 pm Reply with quote
Admiral I

Level 18

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 07 Jul 2012 Posts: 203 Location: Malaysia MY
Some more funny sail changes in AUTO sail for the developer to scratch their heads:
https://www.box.com/s/l9soqvr7u7qnsjsi34p5

https://www.box.com/s/8vhp5rvk56ahorf5dkp8

https://www.box.com/s/pmk0t08024upy9z5cch6

https://www.box.com/s/edhxgl0r65zdyi80khts

However at least way-points did not jump around in 'Green' .
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ttplanet
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:46 am Reply with quote
Commander

Level 12

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 03 Sep 2012 Posts: 105 Location: Franfurt/Main DE
Hi there,

I haven't found the information of the best VMG for each sail and windangle of these MODs. Can someone help me? My feeling says that best VMG at headwinds is more worse compared to the good old VOR70.

Thanks in advance,
TT

Edit: I found the polar plots in the game itself. I thought it was only to switch the red polars around the boat on and off.
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Suratna
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:01 pm Reply with quote
Admiral IV

Level 21

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LiveSkipper Member Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 8844 Location: Thailand TH
Hi ttplanet

a quick answer as the wind update is looming

If you click the Polars icon on the top of the game screen.
a new window opens on left side showing the polars for the boat in the actual race.

by moving the mouse over this window the heading will change and in the window is the calculated VMG mentioned for the sail .
Just move the mouse around and locate the max. VMG .

this will be different with each different sail, it will most likely also change with different wind strength. It must be kept interesting , isn't it Rolling Eyes

indeed the MOD70 is far less effective sailing headwinds as the VO70 and also as the Imoca60. but that is how it is. We have ALL to sail with the same tools that is Exclamation

fair winds and safe sailing.
I hope it is clear, any other questions please ask

_________________
Ard-- http://vor201718.blogspot.com/ ; http://paper.li/ardsur/1345867159#
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