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< Help and Support ~ Information on WP program and Scheduler in LS Beta player |
| Suratna |
 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:29 pm |
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Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 6355
Location: Thailand
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| droopyNJ |
| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:07 pm |
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 64
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That's great explanation here. Very good job.
I used to set my WP for the scheduler mode (purple) at 10, 20, ... it might be wise to change to 11, 21, ... in case the LS server is a little bit late to avoid an early turn. |
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| Suratna |
| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:59 pm |
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Joined: 02 Jul 2009
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Location: Thailand
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droopyNJ_Reva wrote: That's great explanation here. Very good job.
I used to set my WP for the scheduler mode (purple) at 10, 20, ... it might be wise to change to 11, 21, ... in case the LS server is a little bit late to avoid an early turn.
that is correct. If you hit the refresh exactly at what your computer calls xx:00 it might be some seconds too early, or it is the right time but the server has not finished with all its calculations and "strange" things may appear.
I wait always till xx:01 or xx:11 before refresh, you have about 9 min, as it does not matter when you refresh as long it is well before the next 10 min update. |
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Ard-- http://liveskipper-krys.blogspot.com/ ;Austral-W-1;R.Ireland-1; 4Cap R-5;2OceanCr-2; Xmas:2; Caipirinha:5; Ghost: 29;WCoast-3;Vendee-6
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| Todoncio |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:56 am |
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Acting Sub-Lieutenant
Level 9
Joined: 06 Nov 2010
Posts: 40
Location: Austin, TX USA
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I had no idea about these timing issues. I've just launched a boat in an old race to experiment with some of these details. What I don't understand is why it is so complicated. Can't the algorithm be fixed to behave as expected?
Also, I think a great feature would be the ability to combine scheduler & waypoint mode into one track. That way we could use purple marks until we get to a gate or obstruction, then switch to green until we get clear. |
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Todd
The Sailor Formerly Known As "Siren"
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:51 am |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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Quote: Suratna wrote:
hallo JP
let me try to explain the WP
if e.g. it will take 9min. to reach the next Mark on the WP schedule.
your boat will sail happy for 9 min.
then it reaches the WP and waits , sit still, does not move, does not change heading , does not change sails....
Ok. This is clear. The time you talk about is the time when the boat reaches the WP, not the time associated to the mark used to program the WP.
The WAYPOINT Prog insures the POSITION where a change of sail/heading will occur,
The SCHEDULER Prog insures the DATE when a change will occur.
Even if the WP may generate some time loss, one addiionnal problem must be considered with the absolute knowledge of a future position in the Schedule mode.
Our settings as sent to the server are not exactly what we believe.
For example, while writing, Pam 86 parameters as diplayed are:
Heading -111, TWA 358
not exactly !
the server knows Pam86 as
hd 268.384
...
wsa 290.906
this must be read as
Heading= 358.384 and TWA=-110.906
So, whatever it may appear, we are never sure that our boat will be at a stricly given position at a given time.
Hence the choice to pass gates or rocks is:
- use WP prog and be sure to pass exactly close to the mark (as close as 10cm as Denosya said) or at the very pixel close to the wreck limit, while loosing between 1 to 9mn of racing time
- use Sched prog, pass a little bit further from the mark or the rock, loosing some time in the extra course and being never really sure to make a sail/heading change too early impliying a missed gate or a wreck
The choice is "cornélien" 
Obviously, all this may be optimized by the player but at his own risk.
BUT it remains that to have a 100% guarantee to pass a gate or a rock : use the WAYPOINT prog mode.
And as all the insurances in the world: you have to pay for ... some minutes
Jean-Pierre
Beer please ! too much time to write this in a bad English !... sorry, my friends ! |
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:03 am |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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droopyNJ_Reva wrote: That's great explanation here. Very good job.
I used to set my WP for the scheduler mode (purple) at 10, 20, ... it might be wise to change to 11, 21, ... in case the LS server is a little bit late to avoid an early turn.
When you set Waypoint or Schedule ON, a POST command sends all your marks and their context, immediately.
A reload from the browser or from the LS interface has no action on your programming.
JP |
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:40 am |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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Suratna wrote: ...
that is correct. If you hit the refresh exactly at what your computer calls xx:00 it might be some seconds too early, or it is the right time but the server has not finished with all its calculations and "strange" things may appear...
But this has no effect on your programs.
To have a really updated display, better to wait 1mn.
Better also to reload twice than once AND to move the map to see any weather change in the arrows.
I don't know why and when but sometimes all the data is not correctly displayed after the first reload.
Note hat I NEVER use the LS Reload. Too strange things with it 
JP |
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:48 am |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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Siren CFORC wrote: ...
Also, I think a great feature would be the ability to combine scheduler & waypoint mode into one track. That way we could use purple marks until we get to a gate or obstruction, then switch to green until we get clear.
Sure, it will be a nice feature BUT as the WP mode doesn't take care of time and the Scheduled mode don't take care of the position, the combination will be somewhat tricky to use.
This will perhaps be made with some additional conditions on the sequencing of actions.
Ex: "if a WP is not passed at date D of a timed mark (Sched.), don't execute the timed mark context"
and probably more conditions to avoid suprises !...
JP |
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| Suratna |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:12 am |
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Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 6355
Location: Thailand
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Hallo JP and all
I was not aware that some slight inaccuracies in heading , TWA etc are sometimes made, must be the rounding off in calculations or so.
Anyway it supports the feeling that we need some play in timing (allow some 1 min variance) and location (have some pixel maybe for the risky types amongst us 1/2 pixel between the boat and the rocks)
And be honest, mostly the time differences between the podium sailors is more than a couple of minutes 
I normally use the reload button in the LS game as this works much faster, that is in the Beta.
Only when NOAA uploads have come (0,6,12,18 hts gmt) I use the refresh browser button , or sometimes even close browser, to wipe cache and restart all over. This to prevent that the LS server works with the fresh NOAA data, while the screen would see only the old NOAA data. |
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| Sowslo |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:00 am |
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Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Posts: 2088
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For those who are having difficulty comparing the classic with the beta scheduling.
In terms of programming and future outcomes the orange mark scheduler behaves the same as the classic scheduler. The only 'difference' that I can see is that in classic you type the direction or angle to wind while in beta it is set graphically. Classic you can only set at 10 minute intervals from current time while beta attempts to show a 'real time' even though that too is only activated on the next server update after that time.
Of course the big difference is that classic offers free players 10 wind / sail changes while beta offers only 4 to free players and 10 to those who pay the subscription.
(perhaps this hint to players that revenue from clicks on advertising is not covering the cost of maintaining the game is what upsets more people than the transition from classic to beta) |
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| apte non arcte |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:38 am |
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 555
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Hello,
Imagine !
you participate in a race during 15 days 
It's very very very important if you lose 0.235468°
It seems to me, it most important to chose the best way 
Suratna you made a very good presentation with these examples.
Good Job. |
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| Schakel |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:03 am |
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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Posts: 204
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loco del Rey wrote: Hello,
Imagine !
you participate in a race during 15 days
It's very very very important if you lose 0.235468°
It seems to me, it most important to chose the best way
Suratna you made a very good presentation with these examples.
Good Job.
Well, I look at it this way :
I use my 10 waypoints to plan my course for the next 12 hours. On averay I loose, say, 5 minutes per waypoint, so that's a little less than 2 hours per day. On a 3-month round the world race, that amounts to about a week of waiting at waypoints.
I now know why I am currently ranked 320th in LSWR. It has nothing to do with my sailing skills.
Bye,
Philip |
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:21 pm |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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loco del Rey wrote: Hello,
Imagine !
you participate in a race during 15 days
It's very very very important if you lose 0.235468°
It seems to me, it most important to chose the best way
Sure, of very small importance, but I have in my LS archives a very precise explanation, by a very good player, about how not to loose time at a WP Times change !
Quote:
Suratna you made a very good presentation with these examples.
Good Job
Sure ! very good job that might have to be translated in Spanish and French. Thanks, Ard.
The conclusion is, whatever the prog mode used, you risk to loose 9mn59s max either stopped in WP mode or running further in a Sched. mode.
BUT ! 10mn are sometimes very much as some wins, even on very long races, have been made with a few boats in the the same 10mn.
Example, NYC-Bordeaux:
1 (8d 2h 49m 50s) loco tibenou
2 (+ 1m 11s) la guineu
3 (+ 1m 21s) mediterrados
4 (+ 6m 3s) alorsoui
JP |
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:39 pm |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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Sowslo wrote: For those who are having difficulty comparing the classic with the beta scheduling.
In terms of programming and future outcomes the orange mark scheduler behaves the same as the classic scheduler. The only 'difference' that I can see is that in classic you type the direction or angle to wind while in beta it is set graphically. Classic you can only set at 10 minute intervals from current time while beta attempts to show a 'real time' even though that too is only activated on the next server update after that time.
The "minute" programing in BETA is misleading as the true time unit in LS is 10mn.
If the marks could be only put at 00mn of each 10mn slice, the boats will progress the same as actually and it will be less confusing for the players.
By the way, avoiding Ard to spend so much time in his brilliant explanations
A lot of problems and words about something which not have to exist !
JP
About numerical /graphical programming: what is the simplest, the fastest, the more precise one ?
Have you already seen precise numerical data set via a graphical interface like in the Beta ?
About time resolution in LS: all the timestamps are defined with a resolution of 1ms (ex: "t 1299535807356" where 356 are milliseconds) |
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| pam86 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:51 pm |
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Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5563
Location: Santiago,Chile
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Suratna wrote: Hallo JP and all
I was not aware that some slight inaccuracies in heading , TWA etc are sometimes made, must be the rounding off in calculations or so.
I don't think that there is any rounding in calculus. All the calculations appear to be made in floating point with various degree of precision
Examples: as sent to the server
- the accuracy of our positions is with 14 decimals,( returns with 5 from the server)
- the TWA or heading with 3 decimals (ex: angle="267.833")
The inaccuracies may occur when fractional parts are cumulated .
So, you can verify that, sometimes, a specified TWA returns from the server with a shift of 1° apart from the specified value.
And, 1° of shift may imply a shift in speed more than 0.5Knts under some circumstances.
Quote:
I normally use the reload button in the LS game as this works much faster, that is in the Beta.
Faster because it does not reload all (weather, background image, etc . But, it happens that the display is not as it would be with a browser reload.
A browser reload is more sure.
JP
All of this may be checked using Firefox/Firebug. |
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